[00:00:00] Latest in Staying Healthy: Exploring Wellness Gadgets and Stacking Modalities for Health

[00:02:34] Scott’s Journey to Wellness Entrepreneurship and Red Light Therapy Insights

[00:06:28] Red Light Therapy: Combating Light Deficiency and Cellular Energy Boost

[00:10:19] Red Light Therapy: Modern Benefits, Wound Healing, and Practical Applications

[00:14:31] The Role of Red Light and Infrared in Melatonin Production and Better Sleep

[00:19:44] Optimal Red Light Therapy Duration and Intensity for Daily Use and Healing

[00:22:04] Sunlight vs. Red Light Therapy: Balancing Natural Exposure and Modern Hacks

[00:27:55] Exploring Photodynamic Therapy: Methylene Blue, Red Light, and Emerging Applications

[00:34:12] Red Light Therapy for Skin: Anti-Inflammatory Effects and Holistic Healing

[00:37:06] Choosing the Right Red Light Therapy Device for Maximum Coverage

[00:38:37] Maximizing Red Light Therapy: Targeted vs. Rotational Use

[00:39:48] Understanding the Mito Red Series: Features, Wavelengths, and Innovations

[00:42:55] Mito Red Light Devices: Pricing, Features, and Customization Options

[00:45:04] Choosing Between Size and Features in Red Light Therapy Devices

[00:46:05] Affordable, Durable Red Light Therapy: Long-Term ROI and Value

[00:47:56] Hydrogen Water Bottles: Benefits, Convenience, and Complementary Use with Red Light

[00:51:09] Portable Red Nightlights: Circadian-Friendly Lighting Solutions for Home and Travel

[00:53:49] Shipping Options: Domestic and International Availability

[00:54:23] Hydrogen Bottle PPM Levels: Performance and Comparison

[00:55:09] EMF Concerns and Differences in Red Light Therapy Devices

[00:56:32] Why Mito Red Stands Out: Quality, Value, and Safety in Red Light Therapy

[00:59:48] Red Light Therapy for Better Sleep and Natural Solutions for ADHD

[01:01:58] Red Light Therapy and Cancer: Mitochondrial Health vs. Caution

[01:04:42] Optimal Red Light Therapy Timing: Morning, Evening, or Both?

[01:05:17] Using Methylene Blue and Red Light for Oral Thrush and Recovery

[01:06:02] Choosing Clean Methylene Blue and Using Red Light for Oral Healing

[01:08:30] Heat Lamps vs. LED Red Light Therapy: Key Differences and Uses

[01:10:46] Red Light Therapy for Detox: Benefits and Limitations

[01:11:53] Red Light Therapy for Vitiligo and Sensitive Skin: Benefits and Precautions

[01:13:18] Red Light Therapy Safety: Avoiding Overexposure with Timed Use

[01:14:38] Red Light Therapy: Clothing Impact and Optimal Exposure

[01:15:29] Key Benefits of Red Light Therapy: Conditions and Emerging Innovations

[01:18:45] Cleaning and Differentiating Red Light Helmets: Hair vs. Brain Applications

[01:21:00] Red vs. Amber Bedside Lights: Differences and Best Uses

[01:21:58] Eye Protection for Red Light Therapy: Recommended Glasses and Safety Tips

[01:23:09] Using Red Light Therapy for a Sprained Ankle: Belt vs. Portable Device

[01:23:50] EMF Safety and Upcoming Mobile Device Updates

[01:24:49] Morning Light Routines and Sun-Gazing Practices

[01:26:38] Comparing Red Light Therapy Devices and Usage Tips

[01:27:46] Understanding Wavelengths in Red Light Therapy and Choosing the Right Panel

[01:30:27] Optimal Distance and Intensity for Effective Red Light Therapy

[01:31:51] The Truth About “Medical Grade” Certifications and Marketing Gimmicks

[01:33:46] Effectiveness of FDA-Cleared Hair Regrowth Helmets and Recommended Usage

[01:36:11] Optimal Distance for Red Light Therapy: Balancing Effectiveness and Safety

[01:37:55] Using Red Light Therapy and Microneedling for Acne Scar Healing

[01:39:03] Red Light Therapy for Thyroid Health and Emerging Internal Light Therapies

[01:41:58] Hydrogen Bottle Material and Best Practices for Use

[01:42:28] The Mito Pod: Convenience, Travel Use, and Red Light Benefits

[01:45:00] LED Red Light Therapy vs. SaunaSpace Incandescent Bulbs: Key Differences

[01:46:41] Eye Safety and Glasses Recommendations for Red Light Therapy

[01:48:33] Using Red Light Therapy for Injury Recovery and Ligament Healing

[01:49:33] Comparing MitoMind and VioLite: Features and Brain State Benefits

[01:52:09] Post-Surgery Use of Red Light Therapy: Safety and Wound Healing

[01:53:19] Mido IR3 vs. IR5 Glasses: Near-Infrared Protection and Usability

[01:54:48] Comprehensive Support: Manuals, FAQs, and Customer Service

[01:55:46] Potential Benefits of Red Light Therapy and Methylene Blue for Lyme Disease

[01:56:46] Using Red Light to Counteract Computer EMFs and Eye Strain

[01:58:10] Choosing Wavelengths for Thyroid Support with Red Light Therapy

[01:58:45] Potential Role of Red and Blue Light Therapy for Toenail Fungus

[02:00:16] Exploring Red Light Therapy for Vision and Brain Health

[02:01:41] Red Light Therapy for Neuropathy and Inflammatory Skin Conditions

[00:00:00] Latest in Staying Healthy: Exploring Wellness Gadgets and Stacking Modalities for Health

Ryan Sternagel: Scott, the traditional first question for you, sir, as folks are logging on: You’re not allowed to talk about light. What have you been doing to stay healthy? What have you added to your wellness routine lately? Or what are you excited about for staying healthy these days?

Scott Chaverri: I have a new gadget called the Vital Neuro that I’ve been using; I don’t know if you’ve heard of it.

Ryan Sternagel: The Vital Neuro?

Scott Chaverri: Yes, it’s got three gold-plated sensors, and it does real-time EEG, which is very difficult to do. It adds neurofeedback through music. You try to drive your brain into certain brain states basically, and the better you perform, the better the quality of the music.

Ryan Sternagel: I tried that. It drove me crazy. I felt like there was too much of a lag on it. Because I meditate, I know how it is—I would quiet my mind, and the music would still be playing louder for another second or two. I’d be like, “Come on.” Then that woke me back up. “Come on, react faster.” But it may be better now. I don’t know.

Scott Chaverri: I don’t know. I’ve only been using it for a couple of months, and I have to say that one of the things I like about it is it’s so easy. I do it while I’m doing red light; I’m stacking the modalities. I use it in the morning to wake up. You get the music, and it’s pretty much effortless brain training because you don’t even have to think about it. Your brain wants to hear the better music, and so you naturally get into the brain state. That’s my new favorite gadget.

Ryan Sternagel: My other problem with it was it connected to Bluetooth, and then it’s on your head.

Scott Chaverri: That’s true. I do go out on the ground after, in case i pull up any…; It’s part of my routine. That was a nice starter for you. I have recommended that they have a wired connection to do it without the Bluetooth, but we’ll see.

Ryan Sternagel “Just Received the EZ03.” We did a webinar last week with Tobias of Promo Life Ozone. Awesome, Joyce, now you can stack on red light therapy to the mix or Scott’s fancy new hydrogen bottles; I still need to get one of those myself.

[00:02:34] Scott’s Journey to Wellness Entrepreneurship and Red Light Therapy Insights

Ryan Sternagel: Scott, last time we did a formal PowerPoint. This time it’s a little more informal. Tell everybody about yourself. You are my long-time friend, because I think that’s fair.

Scott Chaverri: I’d say now, 2016. It’s been eight years.

Ryan Sternagel: Scott’s son, Matthew, was diagnosed with cancer. 2016 was when he was diagnosed then?

Scott Chaverri: May 2016.

Ryan Sternagel: May! Exactly two years after my son was diagnosed with cancer, he reached out to me, and we hit it off. He’s one of the few guys that has done as much research and went to the ends of the earth and blah, blah, blah as we did. His son is doing great. I have since crashed on your couch many times for integrative cancer conferences in Scottsdale.

What else should you say about yourself? Then I bugged you to start your own health company.

Scott Chaverri: Yes, so that is the backstory for how we know each other, and I would say it is the backstory for why I started my company too in the sense that I was always interested in health and wellness, and I was doing all these things, but when you go through having a child with cancer, it is (to put it mildly) extremely uncomfortable. But in many ways, I took that as a sign that maybe I was too comfortable and that I needed to not be comfortable anymore.

Part of that was starting a business and following my dream to be an entrepreneur. I was 41 when he was diagnosed. I had a good corporate career, but it was not something I was ever super passionate about. Once we got through the two years (One year of treatment and then one year of scans), I felt that we were in a relatively good place there. I immediately started thinking about what I was going to do on the entrepreneurship side. That was the birth of my life.

Ryan Sternagel: Now you’ve got the hottest red light company in town.

Scott Chaverri: I’m trying.

Ryan Sternagel: Out of curiosity, Scott’s been on this webinar series one time before. Did anybody see or hear that last one? Can I get a yes or no? That’d be helpful. Because I think, Scott, we were talking about a few different things, talking about the latest photodynamic therapy research—which we’ve been getting super into ourselves. I’m staring at that tower fan there that I ordered and forgot to set up.

This used to be one office then they cut it in half, and I got the side with the thermostat, but she’s never there.

When we talk about the general benefits, when we think about light therapy/red light therapy in conjunction with concerns over chronic conditions, it’s best you tread that line, being a manufacturer of a device yourself. We are coming out with a supplement now, I’ve got to tread that line too. How do you like to talk, high level, about the benefits of red light therapy?

[00:06:28] Red Light Therapy: Combating Light Deficiency and Cellular Energy Boost

Scott Chaverri: I usually bifurcate the discussion into the macro and the micro. I think the macro story about red and near-infrared light therapy is that our ancestors were outside essentially all the time, and modern humans are essentially inside all the time. I mean, 20 years ago, the EPA did a study and concluded that we’re indoors 93% of the time—86% of the time we’re in a building, and 7% of the time we’re in a car, motor vehicle, subway, or something. We’re not getting sunlight, period. That’s the macro story.

The macro story is that sunlight is comprised of 7% ultraviolet, 39% visible light (the light we can see), and 54% infrared. I believe the macro story is that we’re very deficient in light, and we’re very deficient in infrared light in particular.

Ryan Sternagel: Mal-illuminated; We coined that term last time.

Scott Chaverri: Then also, when we are indoors—and now it’s gotten even worse—we used to at least have incandescents, which are full-spectrum light. Now, our government overlords have done away with those for energy efficiency reasons, and now we use LEDs, but a specific type of LEDs, which are essentially blue and green light. Now we’re not even getting the infrared and the little bit of infrared and red that we used to get from incandescent.

Ryan Sternagel: The energy efficiency—the more energy efficient your windows are, the less infrared you get.

Scott Chaverri: In the name of efficiency, we’ve made these changes, but we’re not thinking about our biology. It’s getting worse and worse on the deficiency side, in my opinion. We’re exposed to junk light.

For the macro story, the good news is you can supplement with red and near-infrared light LEDs—but very high-quality LEDs that don’t flicker and that give the right wavelengths. You can get that energy back into your body in a very safe manner and in an efficient manner. In terms of a time investment, typically it’s 10 minutes a day, we’re suggesting. That’s the big-picture story.

Then I like to also tell the story of what’s happening at the level of the cell because we do understand what’s happening inside the body when it’s exposed to certain wavelengths of light. The nuts and bolts of it are that it’s helping the cells make energy. It’s helping the cells make ATP, which is helping the mitochondria make ATP, which is essentially cellular energy to the extent that the cells make energy better, they function better. Whether that’s a skin cell, a hair cell, a liver cell, or an immune cell—if it’s functioning better, it’s going to do its job better, and you should generally see better outcomes.

Ryan Sternagel: And by the way, if you haven’t heard me lecture you on getting incandescent light bulbs, you still can. They’re banned from manufacturing, but I don’t think the Chinese are taking that very seriously. You can still go on Amazon and search “incandescent light bulb” and find them. You can get them.

Scott Chaverri: I’m working on a healthy LED light—it’s one of my side projects. It’ll be a light. The first version is going to be similar—it’ll come up and over the computer, more of a task light. It’ll be full-spectrum and potentially even have some near-red.

[00:10:19] Red Light Therapy: Modern Benefits, Wound Healing, and Practical Applications

Ryan Sternagel: There’s all this research on red light therapy improving mitochondrial function, is that because we are mal-illumined? Would our mitochondria be supercharged if we’re spending all day outside? Would red light therapy be as beneficial as it is now?

Scott Chaverri: I don’t know that we know that for sure, but I would speculate that if you took the typical modern human and a hunter-gatherer, and gave them both red lights, the modern human would benefit significantly more from using the light than the person who’s already outside all day.

The only caveat would be with respect to an injury. I do think that even if I were outside all day long, if I sprained my ankle, I would still use my red light for that acute issue because I believe it would help the ankle heal faster.

For general health, if you were outside all day long, I think the net benefit of using red light would be diminished.

Ryan Sternagel: Like you said, for wound healing—our classic red light story is Ryder. He somehow scraped his foot (I still don’t know what he did). He took a bunch of skin off of it then he was picking at it. It’s the foot where he still has some nerve damage, so he can’t feel when he’s doing something to damage it.

We discovered he took it down so far. We were traveling and happened to have our little portable red light with us. We shined it on the wound for three days, and it looked like a two-week-old wound.

Scott Chaverri: It’s amazing. It also helps that he’s a kid—kids heal faster in general. But that, combined with the light, really made a difference.

We hear stories like that all the time. My stepfather had a very similar story. He had surgery on his abdomen, and he wasn’t healing (He’s in his seventies). I happened to be on the phone with my mom, and she said, “He’s not healing.” I told her, “Ma, you have the damn light I sent you. It’s sitting in your closet gathering dust. Why don’t you use it?” Within a couple of days, it was a night-and-day difference. It’s anecdotal, but I feel blessed to be in this position, and that I can benefit from it—and the people I care about can benefit too.

Ryan Sternagel: With all the excitement of the first-ever in-person webinar or, actually, the second in-person webinar but the first with Scott—I forgot the housekeeping.

Please don’t take anything you hear here as medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Scott’s not a doctor, and I’m not a doctor. I don’t think either of us has any interest in being doctors. This is for informational purposes only.

[00:14:31] The Role of Red Light and Infrared in Melatonin Production and Better Sleep

Ryan Sternagel: Last time, you gave a nice presentation on some of the stuff you talked about, but you specifically mentioned melatonin and melanin. When people talk about increasing melatonin production, I think the conversation often goes to light hygiene—like not looking at screens at night and stuff like that.

Scott Chaverri: There you go. I have a nice (don’t know how well this comes out) but a nice red light. You can see it’s bright here.

Ryan Sternagel: Turn it all the way up. You can see it.

Scott Chaverri: 633-nanometer red light won’t disrupt your melatonin production at night; That’s the idea.

Ryan Sternagel: Don’t look at your phone, use blue-blocking glasses, and so on. You don’t hear as much about the light you get during the day, but that’s what you’ve focused on.

Scott Chaverri: Honestly, that was a learning experience for me too. When I first got into this, I’d heard that red and near-infrared light could be beneficial for melatonin. I didn’t understand it because, years ago, I thought of melatonin only as dim-light-onset melatonin, which is what you’re describing which is that the sun goes down, and there’s this cascade that happens in the body as the sun sets and things get dark. It sends a signal to the brain that it’s time to sleep soon. Dim-light-onset melatonin, which is released from the pineal gland, happens, and you don’t want to disrupt that.

I certainly struggled with insomnia for a long time because I was watching television at night and had a TV in my bedroom—terrible light hygiene. Blue blockers were a game-changer for me, but that’s all I understood about the topic at the time.

Now, it’s becoming more evident that near-infrared radiation to the body during the day may be responsible for as much as 95% of the melatonin produced in the body. It’s produced in the cells by the mitochondria in response to increased ATP production.

The idea is that when we’re outside in the sun, getting infrared radiation, it increases ATP and cellular energy production. The power plants are working overtime, so there’s an increase in reactive oxygen species and oxidative stress. The mitochondria respond to that by making much more melatonin to “put out the fire,” which makes a lot of sense.

To the extent that you’re outside—as we or our ancestors normally would be all day—our cells function better. They make more ATP and also more melatonin at the cellular level. You build up a reservoir of melatonin throughout the day if you’re outside. That spares the melatonin made by the pineal gland, which should help you sleep better. It’s not directly impacting dim-light-onset melatonin. I know personally that whenever I’m outside a lot, I sleep so much better, including camping.

Ryan Sternagel: You should have a horrible night’s sleep because you’re on the ground, and it’s different…

Scott Chaverri: You sleep like a rock. Maybe it’s because it’s colder, and there could be other contributing factors. Or if you’re on vacation at the beach, obviously you’re on vacation—maybe not as stressed. I do think a big piece of it is being outside in the sun, getting that exposure, and building a massive reservoir of melatonin during the day.

More and more papers are coming out about this. It’s not just me talking about it, there’s a paper for those who like to read scientific papers, by Russell Reiter and Scott Zimmerman, published in 2019. They’ve done a lot of melatonin research; They did a deep dive on this topic.

It’s also covered on MedCram. If anyone’s familiar with MedCram, it’s by Roger Seheult—I think that’s his name—he’s a triple board-certified MD. He does a deep dive into this.

This is becoming more mainstream, thankfully, and it’s becoming more evident why we need to get more infrared in our lives.

Ryan Sternagel: Get more infrared in your lives.

[00:19:44] Optimal Red Light Therapy Duration and Intensity for Daily Use and Healing

Ryan Sternagel: What’s the recommended time on this—10 or 15 minutes? Is that equivalent to a whole day out in the sun, or how does it work?

Scott Chaverri: Sort of. I wouldn’t say a whole day. Our devices, at about six inches, put out about three joules per square centimeter of red and near-infrared light. Generally, when we look at the research, you want anywhere from five joules to 60 joules, depending on what you’re using it for. For a sensitive area, like the eyes, you don’t want that much—you don’t need that much, so five joules is enough.

There’s a study on Japanese children where they used a light similar to this, a couple of feet away, for about 60 seconds, and they saw improvements in myopia in the kids.

We don’t recommend that our lights be used for the eyes because they are super bright, but that gives you a frame of reference.

If you had an injury, I would suggest 60 joules, maybe even a little more, which is equivalent to about 20 minutes.

Based on the research, for regular upkeep, we recommend somewhere in the middle—about 10 minutes, 20 to 30 joules—and I think that’s good for daily use.

Is it equivalent to being outside all day in the sun? I’ve never done the math, but part of the issue is that in the sun, you’re getting all parts of infrared. Infrared ranges from 700 nanometers up to 10,000 nanometers and is composed of near, mid, and far infrared. Far and mid-infrared are usually found in saunas, and they penetrate deeper into the body. They heat the water in the tissues—that’s why they’re used in saunas because they heat the body.

We’re working in the safest part of infrared, between 700 and 900 nanometers. This range has very minimal water absorption and generates very little heat in the body. It’s the safest part of the light spectrum, literally, but we’re using it at a much higher intensity. It’s concentrated in this very safe part of the spectrum.

[00:22:04] Sunlight vs. Red Light Therapy: Balancing Natural Exposure and Modern Hacks

Ryan Sternagel: How does that jive with the concept of, say, the whole food versus the isolate argument? Like, ascorbic acid is, yes, the main active part of vitamin C, but then you hear people talk about how it’s not the same as eating an orange because you’re getting all the cofactors and everything else. Is that the same thing here? You’ve narrowed it down to, as you said, the safest part of the spectrum, but what about the rest of the light spectrum?

Scott Chaverri: That’s a great question. I have two very contradictory answers to that. First, I completely agree with you in principle that sunlight is superior because it comes in the whole food form. So, if anybody asks me what they should do for their health, I’m going to say, “Get outside and get more sun.” That’s going to be my default answer.

The reality is, though, it’s not always possible. It’s not even possible for me. I live in Breezeless, but I spend a lot of time running a business. I’m inside on calls, in meetings, or in front of the computer.

Ryan Sternagel: I did get myself a portable standing desk that I’ve been taking out into the woods with me. You can’t stand outside all day, but I’m under the cover of the trees and stuff. It’s pretty awesome.

Scott Chaverri: Getting a lot of near-infrared—this is a quick tangent—but you’re getting a lot of near-infrared because it reflects off the green. That’s part of the reason why I think we’re drawn to green spaces. It’s also why low-E glass is green—it reflects near-infrared, keeping it from getting inside. If you see green glass, it’s probably low-E, and you’re probably not getting near-infrared through it.

I agree with you in principle and philosophically. We evolved with the sun for billions of years—or whatever your belief system is. It could even be trillions of years if you listen to Terrence Howard. The sun has always been there; It’s the source of life.

I’d say it’s been unfairly disparaged; Let’s put it that way. People are now told to hide from the sun.

Having said that, there’s something to be said for hacking—using parts of the spectrum that we know are super safe, non-thermal, and that act on the mitochondria to increase ATP. There are very specific wavelengths of light that are absorbed by a chromophore called cytochrome c oxidase. These wavelengths decouple cytochrome c oxidase from nitric oxide, allowing it to bind with oxygen to make ATP. We know what those peak action spectra are—830 nanometers, or anywhere between 600 to 900 nanometers. This range is known as the optical window or the golden window.

We can use those wavelengths very mindfully and purposefully to increase ATP. I happen to think there’s logic in sustaining that without the heat with the rest of the infrared spectrum, the effect might be less pronounced because the cell is also dealing with heat generated from water absorption in the mid and far infrared.

In this case, the cell is simply dealing with the increased oxidative stress from ATP production, which can be managed by making more melatonin. It doesn’t also have to deal with the heat. I think it’s a logical hack with very little downside. That’s how I see it.

I’m agreeing with you on both sides. I agree with you but also want to provide more context. I do think all these devices we use can always be debated with an ancestral argument—like, “Our ancestors didn’t take supplements,” or, “Our ancestors didn’t need a hydrogen water bottle.” But the reality is, we live in a modern world. I think some of these mindful hacks—or mindful interventions—can make sense.

Ryan Sternagel: It drives me crazy. It’s like paleo gone wild—the influencers on Instagram now disparaging all supplements and anything like that. Our ancestors didn’t live in a completely nutrient-depleted, indoor environment. Yes, we need some things to counteract that. That’s been our thing from day one. Even when Ryder was one year old, we were trying to get him outside all the time and stuff like that, but we were also buying all the devices we could, supplements, juicing, and so on. You need something to counteract all that.

Scott Chaverri: And juicing—people say juicing is very unnatural, or even blending food is unnatural, but it’s a way to hyper-nutrition—you can get a lot of nutrients into the body quickly, and that may be desirable in certain circumstances.

I think there’s always a balance, and we need to think about the full picture. The reality is, we have a lot of booby traps in the modern world.

Ryan Sternagel: For sure. And again, cancer is a very extreme situation. To counteract that, the conventional guys aren’t afraid to stick a bag of poison in your arm—because they think it’s the right thing to do, and rightfully so in some cases.

The all-natural approach—yes, get out in the sun and whatever—but it takes another extreme situation, even on the integrative or natural side, to bring it back to the middle.

[00:27:55] Exploring Photodynamic Therapy: Methylene Blue, Red Light, and Emerging Applications

Ryan Sternagel: Let’s talk about photodynamic therapy, and then let’s talk about all your stuff. We talk about how people can choose what’s best for them and so on.

As I said in one of the emails announcing this call, it’s fun to see the overlap in things. I got a bunch of information from the biohacker-type guys early on. They were talking about mitochondria, and that applies to cancer, so thought I’ll keep listening to Ben Greenfield.

You can find benefits in different health areas and translate it into your health area, depending on what you’re looking for. Lately, in the cancer world, more and more practitioners we’ve brought onto our member calls—like on our Going Integrative Plus membership every week—we get a different integrative MD, naturopathic oncologist, or someone like that to share insights. More and more people are talking about photodynamic therapy—the concept of ingesting some sort of light-sensitive molecule in combination with light for a synergistic effect.

What was funny about it is—I’ve been hearing a lot about that in cancer. I went to Dr. Anderson’s conference (he holds one every six months). The last time I saw you, I was at one. It’s a different topic every six months. This one was on the neurodivergent patient, which includes autism, ADHD, PANS, PANDAS—that whole wheelhouse. Everyone was talking about photodynamic therapy. That’s the nice part about the holistic side of the fence—it’s not just one thing we’re treating or focusing on, you get a lot of different benefits. It was neat. I hadn’t even thought about it for that application before, but all those doctors were talking about combining methylene blue with red light and so on.

What’s your research been on that?

Scott Chaverri: It’s funny—I’ve definitely come full circle on that. I remember when we started researching all sorts of things in 2016, I was super skeptical about it. I evolve, and I’ve definitely changed my mind on it. I also understand how light works much better now than I did eight years ago—even how certain wavelengths of light work in the body. It’s very sound and very simple. There are certain molecules—we call them chromophores (light-absorbing molecules) that absorb certain wavelengths of light. When that happens, certain things occur. Generally speaking, heat is generated.

For example, methylene blue is interesting because it has its own mitochondrial benefits as well. I’m not an expert on methylene blue, but I’ve seen papers and used it myself. I’ve used it for Candida or fungal overgrowth. I mentioned this to you before we started filming.

They apply methylene blue to the fungus and then hit it with red light, and they’re able to kill off the fungus. I think what’s happening is that heat is being generated. The methylene blue absorbs the red light and creates heat, and that heat helps knock out the fungus.

I used this personally because I had an issue a couple of years ago. I had oral fungal overgrowth. Long story short, I had a lot of dental work. The nerve in my face was affected—I had trigeminal neuralgia, which is the worst pain you could ever have. I was in a lot of pain. I was taking antibiotics because of the dental work, and then I took steroids for the nerve pain. Then, because I couldn’t deal with it—those two things can lead to fungal overgrowth. I tried everything. The two things that knocked it out were methylene blue and red light, and making my own yogurt. That’s why I started making my own yogurt, which I think I told you about a year ago. I still do, by the way.

The reason I read papers on it is because methylene blue absorbs red light at 660 nanometers. You can feel it. When I did it, I could feel the heat on my tongue; It was such a night-and-day difference. I was using the red light on my face for the nerve pain, you don’t feel much of anything—it’s very minimal heat; You hardly feel anything.

But when I put the methylene blue on my tongue and used it on my tongue, my tongue started to feel like it was burning. That was my anecdotal experience, but it showed me that something was happening there.

To tie a bow on it, my feelings about photodynamic therapy are that we need a lot more research.

It also raises questions—what molecules should we be using, and for what purposes? There are a lot of different chromophores. I’ve heard of curcumin, chlorophyll, and methylene blue.

I’m hopeful there will be more research, but research is very expensive; That’s also part of the problem. These things aren’t patented. Methylene blue, I think, has been off-patent for a hundred years or something. I think it was discovered in the 1800s.

Ryan Sternagel: It’s like the first drug. If you’re curious about any particular substance, you can usually search for something like the name of the substance and “nanometer spectrum absorption rate” or “absorption capacity.” You’ll find papers that show the range of light that substance absorbs; That’s pretty cool.

[00:34:12] Red Light Therapy for Skin: Anti-Inflammatory Effects and Holistic Healing

Ryan Sternagel: The other tie-in I forgot to mention was along our journey, our other son, Rocky, had high-grade eczema. One of the first things we stumbled upon was red light for skin purposes. The crossover is cool; Do you know why that is?

Scott Chaverri: A couple of reasons. One is that, from the standpoint of helping cells do their job better when they’re actively trying to heal, red light helps with that because you have inflammation. There’s also an anti-inflammatory effect from bright light. It’s not a direct effect—it’s an indirect effect.

What we think happens is that red light hits the cells and the mitochondria. It increases ATP, which causes a transient increase in reactive oxygen species (ROS). This signals from the mitochondria to the nucleus of the cells, called retrograde signaling, telling the cell, “Hey, you’ve got this little issue going on here; you might want to upregulate your anti-inflammatory and antioxidant pathways. You get this downstream anti-inflammatory effect. I think that’s why you see benefits in a lot of inflammatory skin conditions, whether it’s acne, eczema, or psoriasis. Acne—blue light, I think, helps too.

There’s this anti-inflammatory effect if it’s dosed right. But you don’t want to overdo it. This is why you’re looking for a Goldilocks amount, which means more isn’t necessarily better; That’s why we generally recommend about 10 minutes for most people. It’s a good range because it is theoretically possible to do too much and create too much stress since it is a minor stressor.

Ryan Sternagel: This reflects how you hear about eczema or these autoimmune-ish type conditions. Then you hear the natural practitioners say, “It’s all in the gut. You’ve got to heal the gut, and everything will be fine.” From what we came to learn, there gets to be a topical component. It’s like its own topical inflammation and its own localized issue. There’s often a topical staph infection as well. I don’t know if it’s the chicken or the egg; I think the inflammation creates the ideal breeding ground for the staph or something like that, so you have to topically address the inflammation and the topical infection before the thing will heal.

Scott Chaverri: Before the gut healing will move the needle.

Ryan Sternagel: Because it’s still sending inflammatory signals inside. You’ve got to heal from the outside in and the inside out, which is counterintuitive to the mantras you hear in natural health.

[00:37:06] Choosing the Right Red Light Therapy Device for Maximum Coverage

Ryan Sternagel: All that said, we should get to some questions, but first, let’s talk about you. We put up the Mito Red 750 Plus.

Scott Chaverri: It lasts for years. You call it half-body.

Ryan Sternagel: That’s the 750 half-body.

Scott Chaverri: If we could only get one light and had limited space, I would get the 1500, which is twice the size of that. You can hang it on the back of your door…

Ryan Sternagel: Do I have the 1000?

Scott Chaverri: You have a 1500. Five and a half feet—sliced it there.

Ryan Sternagel: I always forget your model numbers.

Scott Chaverri: Obviously, if you have the space—because you have that on the stand—you can get two of those, two of the 1500s, and then you’d have full-body coverage, head to toe.

Personally, in an ideal state, that’s the way to do it—illuminate as much of the body as you possibly can in the time you’re going to invest. It is theoretically possible to do the same thing with just one, but it would take a lot longer.

[00:38:37] Maximizing Red Light Therapy: Targeted vs. Rotational Use

Ryan Sternagel: If you’ve only got one, is it better to… Say you only have 10 minutes a day to invest, should you hit the same spot for 10 minutes and then hit a different spot the next day for 10 minutes, or should you “turkey baste” yourself?

Scott Chaverri: That’s an interesting question. Personally, I’m not super blessed—I have a lot of lights.

Ryan Sternagel: Your skin looks better every day.

Scott Chaverri: Thank you. I do spin around, though, because sometimes I want to make sure I get my sides too. There’s something to be said for that. But obviously, there’s a benefit, for me, of hitting the face for aesthetic reasons. Then also the groin—for hormonal health reasons, or at least I’m hoping. Because I’m in my birthday suit when I’m doing the light, I would, for my personal use, when I only had one light, primarily keep it in one spot. I might do a minute or two on different parts of the body to mix it up.

[00:39:48] Understanding the Mito Red Series: Features, Wavelengths, and Innovations

Ryan Sternagel: And then you have the different series too. There’s the Mito Pro…

Scott Chaverri: I feel like there are almost too many.

Ryan Sternagel: Talk about, as best you can, the different series, the different models, and considerations. You already talked about different considerations, but what else can we say about the series and models?

Scott Chaverri: We have the original series, which was only 660-nanometer red and 850-nanometer near-infrared. Those were the standard wavelengths back when we started. Then, I was doing research, and I came across a paper by a Russian scientist, Tina Karu. She talked about the peak action spectra of cytochrome c oxidase. As I mentioned earlier, they’re not just 660 and 850 nanometers.; They’re different ports.

It didn’t make sense to me—why wouldn’t we target the chromophore we want to activate more effectively? That’s why we launched the Pro, which added in 630 nanometers to better target the peak action spectra.

A quick aside—the reason 660 is commonly used is for supply chain reasons. It’s used in grow lights and has been for a long time, so it’s the most abundantly available.

The same goes for 850 nanometers—it’s used in the security camera industry. These wavelengths are plentiful and easy to source.

There’s nothing wrong with that. When this industry started about a decade ago, it was about finding what we could get our hands on. Now, the technology has come so far that we can make LEDs to target whatever point on the spectrum we want—pretty much anywhere from ultraviolet all the way up into far infrared. We can now make better devices.

The Pro has four wavelengths, and then the Pro X, which we launched in January, has six wavelengths. We’re spreading the energy out a little more to make it more congruent with nature—like what you were saying earlier. Why be hyper-focused on two or four points if we can spread it out a little more, while still staying within the optimal part of the optical window?

The Adapt—that’s something I designed myself. I’m proud of it. It has four wavelengths, but you can use them in many different combinations. That device is more of a passion project. I wanted to see if we could figure out whether specific wavelengths are good for specific applications.

We’ve sent the Adapt out into the wild and are collecting feedback from our customers through the app. We’re hoping to identify if a certain wavelength is good for sleep, or if another is good for recovery from exercise—because we don’t have definitive answers to those questions yet.

The Adapt is so adaptable in terms of how users can use it, we might be able to figure that out. That’s a very fast explanation. I would suggest going to the website and reading through the details.

[00:42:55] Mito Red Light Devices: Pricing, Features, and Customization Options

Scott Chaverri: I like to give people choices, and the prices for the devices are very different. Entry-level starts at 250, up to the full-body Adapt at 5,000, and everything in between. We want to give people choices, give them a chance to try it, and then win them as a customer. Then, hopefully, they come back and buy something else.

Ryan Sternagel: The Adapt is for biohackers or anyone interested in the different light spectrums and being part of figuring this stuff out.

Scott Chaverri: Yes. For example, with that device, you can make half of it 810 nanometers. We know 810 penetrates the skull the best. For brain health, we have a brain helmet, and we use 810 for that reason.

You could also make half of it 630 nanometers, which is a spectrum you don’t often find in red and near-infrared lights. There’s research on 630 nanometers being linked to weight loss, which is strange to me—I don’t even fully understand why that would be but there is.

The Adapt—I don’t want to call it the Rolls-Royce of red lights, but there’s nothing else like it. It optimizes for flexibility.

Ryan Sternagel: And then as far as the other three are concerned, that’s where you’re getting the blast of red light we talked about the more spectrum for each. The basic is going to cost less than the Pro, which costs less than the Pro X.

Scott Chaverri: We added a touchscreen to the Pro X2. You can also use the app via Bluetooth. It’s got an alarm, and I tried to think about what other user-friendly features we could include. It has brightness control. For whatever reason, you could even use it as an ambient light if you lower the red light.

That’s part of why the Pro X is a little more expensive than the Pro—it has more wavelengths and a more sophisticated design.

[00:45:04] Choosing Between Size and Features in Red Light Therapy Devices

Ryan Sternagel: If you’re choosing between a bigger size on a lesser unit versus a smaller size on a higher-end model, what would you recommend? Would you rather have a full-size Pro or a half-size, a Pro 1500 or a 750 Pro X?

Scott Chaverri: A Pro 1500, for sure. I think you want to get as much light on your body as your budget allows, in my opinion. Yes, do without some of the features or bells and whistles. Get the light—a nice, bright light that’s going to cover a lot of your body. That’s what I would do. In my house, I have a Pro X sandwich on one side, a Pro X on the wall on another side, and a Pro Plus on the other wall. I haven’t used an adapt yet.

[00:46:05] Affordable, Durable Red Light Therapy: Long-Term ROI and Value

Ryan Sternagel: What I love about you in the first place, Scott, is that there were a couple of companies doing red light in the beginning and charging exorbitant prices for it. You came in, saw how much it actually costs to make these things, and—being a smaller company too—you came in as a guy like us. We want to get as much healing as we can, and you said, “Here’s what these things should cost.” You’re not running on a huge margin. You’re not marking your stuff up 10 times.

Scott Chaverri: No way. Especially with the panels, it’s very tough. These things are built to last. I’m very proud of that. You just lifted that thing up—it’s sturdy, it’s solid.

I’ve got lights that have been running for eight to ten hours a day for five years in fitness facilities, and they’re still going strong because LEDs last a very long time.

It can seem like a bit of an investment, but if you’re using it daily for years, you get a great ROI.

Ryan Sternagel: That’s what I love about devices in general. Yes, you’ve got to buy them the one time, but it’s not like buying a…

Scott Chaverri: Well it’s not true for your iPhone. There’s planned obsolescence in that thing. I love Apple or whatever, but we don’t have any planned obsolescence. Our products are built to last. We’ve got a three-year warranty. I don’t want them to break—ever. Also, there’s the wastefulness side of it; I don’t want them to wind up in a landfill. They should be used for years and years.

Ryan Sternagel: When you think about it, high-end bottles of supplements are $100, $120. You fill that thing 10 times, and now you’ve got yourself a red light, which you could be using for life.

[00:47:56] Hydrogen Water Bottles: Benefits, Convenience, and Complementary Use with Red Light

Ryan Sternagel: I don’t have one of these new fancy hydrogen water bottles yet. Tell us about this.

Scott Chaverri: Obviously, our core competency is red light, but I’m passionate about being healthy and everything that goes with it. That’s why I ferment my own yogurt and use the Vital Noro. I’ve got all sorts of gadgets and gizmos—that’s how I wound up sitting here in this moment. If I come across something I think could be beneficial and that I think I could do better than what’s out there, I explore it.

Hydrogen water got on my radar a while ago; It used to be that you could only use tablets. I don’t know if you remember, but originally with the tablets, you had to put them in the water and drink it right away. I would do that, and then they improved it. Somehow, the gas would supposedly sit for a while, and you didn’t have to slam it immediately. Then the bottles started coming onto the market. It’s electrolysis—all it does is run an electrical current through the water, separating the hydrogen and the oxygen in the water. This creates free hydrogen gas when you drink it.

We recommend running it for five or ten minutes and then drinking it right away. The gas perfuses into the body, predominantly targeting the hydroxyl radical (OH). You’ve got free-floating hydrogen (H) that finds OH, which is a very problematic free radical in the body, and it turns it back into water. H plus OH becomes H2O.

That’s all it’s doing. It’s so basic—and it’s water. We had an opportunity to design a bottle I’m very proud of. It tests well, and we’re getting it IHSA-certified.

I have it twice a day. I don’t even drink that much of it, but I have a bottle right after I do my red light as part of my morning routine because I’m creating a little bit of oxidative stress in the body while doing red light, so I slam the hydrogen water after. I think there’s more and more research showing that hydrogen water has real benefits.

Ryan Sternagel: We’ve been hydrogen fans for a long time. It’s awesome that you can now have it in this slick little bottle.

Scott Chaverri: And you don’t have to keep buying the pills.

Ryan Sternagel: We’ve had the countertop units as well. They’re great for at home, but I’m on the go a lot. As you saw, my typical experience is thinking I’m going to have a jar of pickles. I always think I’m going to pack myself some healthy water and a healthy lunch. Then I end up with San Pellegrino and a jar of pickles from across the street—organic pickles, of course.

Scott Chaverri: This is good for on-the-go. When I fly—which is rare—I always wish I had the hydrogen bottle because you’re exposed to radiation and oxidative stress. I slam some hydrogen when I get off the plane, or sometimes before and after the flight.

[00:51:09] Portable Red Nightlights: Circadian-Friendly Lighting Solutions for Home and Travel

Scott Chaverri: I threw these in my bag as I was headed over here because, just like the hydrogen bottle, we flew up here. I use these myself.

This was me solving my own problem. First of all, incandescent bulbs are hard to find. Then, even when you can find them, they’re not ideal. I didn’t even have a light for my own nightstand, which I thought was so ridiculous because I own a light company. I literally had a lamp—my wife bought this beautiful lamp with a lampshade—but it didn’t even have a bulb in it; It was just a decoration.

We used to use those clip-on book lights all over the place. It was ridiculous.

This is so simple—it’s $50, but I love it because it’s battery-powered. I’m one of those crazy people who turn off the power to the bedrooms at night when we go to sleep. But if I get up to use the restroom or something, I can tap this thing and have very circadian-friendly light—very soft red light. I love these things.

Now we offer them to people. We’ve got amber too, which is a little brighter, but I usually use red.

Ryan Sternagel: We turned the power off too. We went double—we have shielded conduit from when we built the house, but we still installed kill switches to turn it off.

Rocky—he didn’t always have this, but now he wants a light on. He sleeps in the closet in the kids’ room. They’re all in the same room, but he has his own special spot in the closet. He wants a light on in there; He’s four or whatever.

I threw a couple of those bad boys in there and lit up the whole space for him. He loves it. It’s like his little red glowing cave now.

Scott Chaverri: Mathew is ten and does the same thing—he always has this on. He puts it down low like this and then turns it on. He likes to fall asleep with it on. I usually sneak by his room and turn it off, but it’s the same thing. For whatever reason, he prefers to have the light.

Ryan Sternagel: Please avail yourself of one of these. What else do you have to say, Scott?

Scott Chaverri: I was going to ask if there were any questions.

Ryan Sternagel: There are questions, which I can usually see better when I’m closer to the screen.

[00:53:49] Shipping Options: Domestic and International Availability

Ryan Sternagel: Shipping: Where do you ship? Where don’t you ship? Considerations for international shipping—if you do ship internationally, and so on.

Scott Chaverri: We pretty much ship everywhere. On the site, it may not automatically populate for Central America and South America. Europe, New Zealand, and Australia are covered. If there’s someplace that doesn’t pop up, send us an email, and we’ll figure it out.

[00:54:23] Hydrogen Bottle PPM Levels: Performance and Comparison

Ryan Sternagel: “What’s the PPM in the Hydrogen bottle?”

Scott Chaverri: According to testing, a 5-minute run was 3200 parts per billion, and a 10-minute run was 5200 parts per billion. I think we advertised it a little bit lower, like 2500 to 5000, but the testing results are on the product listing.

Ryan Sternagel: Is that a good amount, in your estimation?

Scott Chaverri: It is. It’s the highest I’ve seen. There’s a bottle, the EcoBottle, which is similar but not quite as high. I think they advertise 4.5 parts per million, or 4500 parts per billion—a little bit lower than us. They’re around $250 a bottle.

[00:55:09] EMF Concerns and Differences in Red Light Therapy Devices

Ryan Sternagel: “Do the red lights release EMF or emit EMF? Also, what’s the difference between various light brands? Are they all made the same way?”

Scott Chaverri: Anything that has electrical current (alternating current) running through it will create some magnetic and electric fields. But at the usage distance, it essentially falls to the background. We recommend the lights be used anywhere from 6 to 18 inches away. You can measure it—you can take your Trifield or another magnetic field meter and measure a small magnetic field at the face of the panel. But when you get back 6 to 12 inches, it essentially falls to the background. There is a field, but just don’t be too close, and don’t hold the power cord. If you touch the power cord, there is an electric field that you can measure when physically touching it, but that dissipates very quickly.

For the Adapt, we use a shielded power cord—that was an upgrade. Brian Hoyer, who I think you’re familiar with, came into our office and tested all of our devices.

We have a couple of videos we need to put up on YouTube. Our panels have the Brian Hoyer seal of approval—they are very low EMF, but it’s not possible to be zero, though.

[00:56:32] Why Mito Red Stands Out: Quality, Value, and Safety in Red Light Therapy

Ryan Sternagel: Why are you the best among all the different light brands out there?

Scott Chaverri: That’s a great question. I would say, first of all, we’ve been in business for six years, so we know what we’re doing. If there’s one thing I know how to do at this point, it’s building a very high-quality light therapy panel, and we do that really well. We have a good track record, and the value you get in terms of light output per dollar spent is top-tier.

You can spend less and get a less powerful light, or spend more and still get a less powerful light. The value we provide, combined with the build quality—these things are built to last.

If you’re going to buy a light and you’re shopping around, one way to tell if something is built well is whether or not there’s active cooling. I see devices out there without active cooling. If they’re not actively cooling the LEDs, it means the LEDs aren’t powerful enough to generate enough heat to require it—which, in my opinion, means they’re not powerful enough to do much.

Portable or battery-powered devices are fine for travel or very localized use. For example, they might help with an acute issue like eczema on a specific area. But if you want light therapy done the right way, it should be a light therapy panel that’s built properly, with active cooling and a certain amount of power density.

Another thing—we’re one of the only companies that tests all of our devices in a lab. We know exactly what each device is putting out in terms of power density at the recommended usage distance, and we publish that data.

Ryan Sternagel: The lab part’s a big deal, because a lot of companies are just using a little handheld meter, and you can basically do whatever you want with that meter.

Scott Chaverri: First of all, you can game it—like, if you put the meter directly in front of a near-infrared LED, you can get a much higher reading than you would at the center of the panel.

Secondly, those meters aren’t meant for measuring these types of lights. They’re usually solar meters designed for measuring sunlight, which is full-spectrum light. You need a spectral radiometer to properly measure a device like this. That will tell you not just the wattage output, but also the spectrum—exactly what wavelengths you’re getting.

Ryan Sternagel: Scott was modest about the “you can pay more for less light output” point, but the fancier, more expensive brands—from my understanding—you’re putting out more light, Scott.

Scott Chaverri: Still within a very good window of safety. Our lights are very bright, and we recommend wearing the glasses, etc. I also know that even if you’re very close, I know exactly how many milliwatts per centimeter squared are coming out. I also know that’s well below where we’d need to start worrying about safety. To me, safety is the most important thing. We want bright lights, but we also want to make sure we’re building them the right way so they’re safe to use.

[00:59:48] Red Light Therapy for Better Sleep and Natural Solutions for ADHD

Ryan Sternagel: “My wife has ADHD and horrible sleeping patterns. We’re afraid of melatonin pills because we’re not sure about the optimal dose, etc. Could red light benefit her?”

Scott Chaverri: That’s one of the most common pieces of feedback we get—people notice they sleep better. I had a friend I met in Scottsdale, and I gave him a tabletop light as a gift. He told me he was sleeping better, and honestly, I couldn’t believe it because it was just a tabletop light. I asked, “What are you doing, putting it on your face in the early evening?” And he said, “Yes,” and both he and his wife noticed they were sleeping better. It’s worth a shot. There are other things you can do.

By the way, as a quick aside, I also agree about melatonin pills. I’m super skeptical of them. I would only use them personally when I travel, or if, for some reason, it’s 2 AM, and I can’t fall asleep, and I need that extra push. Other than that, I don’t use melatonin because I’m skeptical of taking anything the body makes on its own. I’m worried about negative feedback loops. The same is true of vitamin D.

Ryan Sternagel: They’ve pretty much done away with that concern. There’s comprehensive research now showing that there is no negative feedback loop for taking melatonin.

Scott Chaverri: I’d like to see it.

Ryan Sternagel: That being said, I’ve seen a lot of high-dose cancer research—cancer reversal research—that’s a very specific application. We don’t use daily melatonin either, even though…

Scott Chaverri: The other thing is—do you want a crutch? Or do you want to try to encourage your body to do what it should naturally be doing?

Ryan Sternagel: Yes. This would fall into that category. “What’s the name of his company?” It’s right there on his shirt, which you can’t see: Mito Red Light.

[01:01:58] Red Light Therapy and Cancer: Mitochondrial Health vs. Caution

Ryan Sternagel: I don’t know if you can say anything about this or not, Scott: “I have basal cell carcinoma on my chest, head, and back. Could red light be something I might want to consider?”

Scott Chaverri: I think we have an article on contraindications—and we say to avoid it for active cancer. The reality is, we don’t know. I generally say, “When in doubt, do without.” We need to do more research because there’s… I can talk a little bit about this, but I’ll speak in general.

On the one hand, I do think that red and infrared light are very much needed for the body to be healthy, and they increase mitochondrial function. I think cancer is a metabolic disease. I think that when you have poor mitochondrial function, you’re more likely to develop cancer; That’s my opinion as a non-doctor.

Is it possible that shining this light on cancerous cells could make them more active? That’s not a possibility I can rule out. Then the question becomes more of a net benefit trade-off because it could also make immune cells more active, so is it possible that it could be a net benefit? We don’t know. It may vary by person, and it may vary by type of cancer. We don’t know; Hopefully, we will at some point.

Ryan Sternagel: I go back to what you said there. It became cancer in the first place because of mitochondrial defects, mitochondrial damage, mitochondrial inefficiency, whatever. Improving that is the opposite of what made it cancer in the first place.

Scott Chaverri: Once it tips over into that state, that’s a different thing you’re dealing with; That’s where I’m super cautious. You can’t say a lot.

Ryan Sternagel: For me, having a top integrative naturopathic cancer doctor on our Q&A calls every week—everybody likes it from the professional practitioners.

Scott Chaverri: There are studies with side effects too. For example, mucositis—there’s good data on it because of the anti-inflammatory effect; There’s that side of it too.

[01:04:42] Optimal Red Light Therapy Timing: Morning, Evening, or Both?

Ryan Sternagel: “Is that 10 minutes total a day all at once, or five minutes in the morning and five minutes in the evening for a total of 10 minutes in the day?”

Scott Chaverri: I would do 10 minutes at once. I think you want a pretty good dose of light. If you’ve had a very long, rough day, it would be okay to do 10 minutes in the evening too. Sometimes I double dip—I’ll do both morning and night. Then I strategically take days off as well. I like mixing it up in general.

[01:05:17] Using Methylene Blue and Red Light for Oral Thrush and Recovery

Ryan Sternagel: “I missed what he said, the sound went out. Can you repeat what he said about the dental issue?” That was when you had thrush, the overgrowth in your mouth, and then you put methylene blue on it, shined the light on it, and knocked the infection down?

Scott Chaverri: Yes. The root cause was that I had COVID, which I think attacked the nerves in my face. Then I had dental work, which also did a number on the nerves in my face. Then I had trigeminal neuralgia. I took steroids—and this is a very familiar story where one thing leads to another in a cascade.

I took steroids and antibiotics, which led to oral thrush that I couldn’t get rid of. The methylene blue and the light helped, along with making my own yogurt.

[01:06:02] Choosing Clean Methylene Blue and Using Red Light for Oral Healing

Ryan Sternagel: “Is CZTL methylene blue powder a good choice?” Don’t stain your teeth. With the liquid, you have to drop it to the back of your throat so you don’t stain your teeth. Then there are also the tablets.

Scott Chaverri: I use the troches, and my tongue turns completely blue. It’s a way to use it, but I’ve gone through the car wash and gotten funny looks from the car wash guys, like, “Why is your mouth blue?”

Ryan Sternagel: Mind your own business—clean blue!

The CZTL—I’m not familiar with that one. The big thing is, you do need to look for toxicity. Dr. Klinghardt said all the methylene blue in U.S. pharmacies is contaminated with heavy metals; That might be going a little far. All the U.S. pharmacies? I don’t know—maybe. But you do need to look out for heavy metals.

For us, with supplements in general, we’re always asking for a COA (certificate of analysis). Any good supplement company should have that done for their products, whether it’s curcumin or methylene blue.

I’ve found several companies now with perfectly clean methylene blue—zero across-the-board COAs. That’s the big thing you want to look for.

I like Best 365 Labs. Compass is another one—those two have perfect COAs. Then there’s Earth Harmony as well. Those three, I can tell you, are super clean.

Ryan Sternagel: Do you have any preferred methylene blue sources?

Scott Chaverri: I have a friend who’s a pharmacist, so…

Ryan Sternagel: How did you get the red light inside your mouth to help heal?

Scott Chaverri: Very uncomfortably. I used a portable device, maybe the one you have. I literally kept my mouth open. It was right on there, and it took some work. It was uncomfortable, but I was desperate.

[01:08:30] Heat Lamps vs. LED Red Light Therapy: Key Differences and Uses

Ryan Sternagel: “I was told by a clinic to use a near-infrared light, 250 wattage, for 30 minutes per day against cancer. What does that mean time-wise when using a portable Mito Red Light?”

Scott Chaverri: They’re telling this person to use a heat lamp, which is good. The issue with heat lamps is that they’re usually very powerful heat filaments with a red coating over them. The way they create red light is by filtering out the other wavelengths. They’re also putting out a fair amount of near and mid-infrared.

They’re okay but with LEDs, we can very specifically target specific wavelengths. The other issue with heat lamps is that you can’t get too close to them because they’re hot. You have to be far away, and only a sliver of the energy coming out of them is in the optimal part of the optical window.

I’ve gone down this path—I do think they are generally beneficial to use, but you’re not going to get anywhere near the amount of light between 600 and 900 nanometers that you can get from an LED. It’s about the right tool for the right job. If I’m in a sauna, I’ll take one of those heat lamps. If I’m in a far-infrared sauna, I’ll usually take one of those heat lamps, put it in there, and add that near and mid-infrared. I think that’s fine. But for true red light therapy, LEDs are the way to do it.

Ryan Sternagel: I just realized we unplugged the computer battery so we could plug in the light. Now we’re almost dead. I’ll fix that while you answer the next question. “I’m sitting outside in the sun, listening—95 degrees.” Good job, Joyce.

[01:10:46] Red Light Therapy for Detox: Benefits and Limitations

Ryan Sternagel: “Which light panel is best for detoxification?” When I think of detox, I don’t think of light therapy right away. But you’re helping the mitochondria, which helps everything else, and so on. Do you think about detox at all when you think about light therapy?

Scott Chaverri: Not really. I do think you’d want something with near-infrared, as that’s going to penetrate deeper into the body—potentially acting directly on detoxification organs like the liver and kidneys. There’s not going to be a whole lot of sweating because there’s not much heat involved, so you’re not going to detox through sweating per se. To the extent that some of the light reaches the organ systems and helps them function better, there could be some knock-on detox benefits. But I think sauna and doing things specifically to support the liver and kidneys are better ways to detox.

[01:11:53] Red Light Therapy for Vitiligo and Sensitive Skin: Benefits and Precautions

Ryan Sternagel: “I wonder if this is safe for sensitive skin. I have a condition called vitiligo and have no pigment in many areas of my skin to protect it. I’ve been curious if red light therapy would be good for me. I also have other autoimmune issues.”

Scott Chaverri: Got it. There’s some good data on red and near-infrared light for vitiligo. I learned about that from a customer about five years ago. It’s worth trying, although I’d definitely recommend starting low and using red light only—so, very gentle. Especially with any sort of immune condition, we recommend caution in our contraindications. For autoimmune conditions, it’s a catch-22 because red light can boost the immune system.

It does increase melanin production and skin turnover. There is data suggesting it can be helpful for vitiligo, but also for conditions like melasma and hyperpigmentation. It helps smooth things out—it’s like an adaptogen for your skin, helping it function better.

I’d say it’s worth a try, but definitely start low and slow.

[01:13:18] Red Light Therapy Safety: Avoiding Overexposure with Timed Use

Ryan Sternagel: You talked about safety: “Can you overexpose to red light?” You mentioned the Goldilocks zone—what happens if I sit in front of this thing for two hours?

Scott Chaverri: I don’t know—I’ve never done that. I do have one customer anecdote. We used to sell lights with very basic controls—just two mechanical switches. This was how we introduced very low-cost lights.

About a year in, I had a customer call me. She said she fell asleep with the light right in her face for a couple of hours and freaked out. I asked, “Are you okay?” She said, “Oh, my face was a little puffy, but then I was fine.” That conversation made me decide to stop selling that product and instead introduce lights with built-in timers.

Now, every device we build has a maximum timer of 20 minutes. I think the pod might allow 30 minutes. If the light’s on, the timer is counting down, so it’s not possible to do two continuous hours.

That said, the one person who did do two continuous hours at close range didn’t experience any lasting side effects. There might be a little redness, but it goes away.

[01:14:38] Red Light Therapy: Clothing Impact and Optimal Exposure

Ryan Sternagel: “Do you need to be naked, or does it go through clothes?”

Scott Chaverri: Great question. Red light will not go through clothing, but near-infrared will. Near-infrared will even go through bone. Our lights have both red and near-infrared. The red primarily acts on the skin, while the near-infrared penetrates deeper into the body.

Ideally, if you want to optimize the benefits, you shouldn’t wear clothing. But if you have a T-shirt or shorts on, the near-infrared will still go through and reach the body. This is why, even outside, you can wear clothes and still benefit. You don’t have to have bare skin in the sun if you’re worried about photoaging from UV, that infrared light will go right through light clothing.

[01:15:29] Key Benefits of Red Light Therapy: Conditions and Emerging Innovations

Ryan Sternagel: “Can you go through a list of what red light therapy has shown to produce results for?” I thought that’s what we were doing this whole time. Is there anything we didn’t talk about as far as conditions improved or research on different areas of the body?

Scott Chaverri: I can give a couple of specific categories, but at a high level, the story is this: If a cell has mitochondria, it can potentially benefit from being exposed to light and function better. That’s why there are 7,500 studies and counting on photobiomodulation for all kinds of things—wound healing, and bone health. It was originally discovered for hair growth. These laser helmets have been on the market for a long time because it’s very well-documented—even FDA-cleared devices—for helping hair growth. We’ve got a helmet. I use it. I’m less bald than I was a year ago.

Ryan Sternagel: I’ve got this little spot in the back.

Scott Chaverri: Wait, did I get you a helmet yet? I’ll probably be able to miss that too.

Ryan Sternagel:  I know I’ve been waiting for that miss, but it’s taking forever. Teddy remarked the other day that she thinks it’s because…

Scott Chaverri: You look pretty good.

Ryan Sternagel: She’s the first to point it out, let’s put it that way. She knows I like to look good—let’s just say that. She said the other day she thinks it’s going back in the other direction now.

Scott Chaverri: Nice. I love to hear that. For me, it’s very slow. I’ve been using it for a year. It’s definitely better than it was, but I also have a stressful job, so I’ve got some headwinds. There’s very good data on it. I believe in it, and the helmet’s going to last another 10 years. Hopefully, it will keep the hair loss at bay or at least minimize it.

Sleep, skin, inflammation, muscle recovery, performance, brain health, and hair growth are the main categories where these devices are being used. We’ve got a lot of products in the pipeline. I’ve got one coming out—an intranasal device that’s going to have blue and red. I think it’ll be amazing for travel because blue is antimicrobial. The red should reduce inflammation and also boost the immune system locally in the nose. Why wouldn’t something like that be in every airport vending machine in the country?

You get on an airplane, breathe in all sorts of stuff, and then use this intranasal with blue and red. Hopefully, it knocks down anything you might have breathed in on the antimicrobial side, but it also boosts the immune system locally. It seems very logical to me. I’m not making any claims, but we know the light does that. For my own travel (because I hate planes), I want this thing. This is an example of something we’ll bring out. Immune benefits are something I didn’t mention earlier, but it came to mind when I was thinking about the potential benefits.

[01:18:45] Cleaning and Differentiating Red Light Helmets: Hair vs. Brain Applications

Ryan Sternagel: Looks like a bit of a follow-up to the helmet discussion: “I’m caring for someone with dementia who rarely fades. Can you explain how to protect a helmet and clean it for multiple users?” And, Scott, can you explain the difference between the red and amber bedside lights? How would you clean it if you needed to clean the helmet?

Scott Chaverri: For the Mito Mind helmet (the one with 810-nanometer light for the brain), there’s a piece of flexible acrylic over it. You could take a lightly damp cloth and clean that. For the hair helmet, there isn’t… I wouldn’t put any liquid on it at all, so use a dry cloth.

Ryan Sternagel: Like a silver-embedded cloth, maybe, if you wanted to?

Scott Chaverri: Yes, if you wanted something like that. Or maybe use a blue light or UV light cleaner. You can find those on Amazon.

Ryan Sternagel: To clarify, you have two different helmets. One is specifically for hair, and the other is for the brain.

Scott Chaverri: Yes, the hair helmet uses 660-nanometer lasers. That’s based on all the data, even going back to the 1960s, when a Hungarian scientist discovered it. He was studying skin cancer in mice. He shaved the mice, gave them cancer, and then hit them with a red laser. It didn’t do anything to the tumors, but the wounds healed faster, and the hair grew back faster. That’s how it was originally discovered.

All of the research from that is focused on red light; That’s why the hair growth helmet uses red light.

Although, I do think it’s very probable that near-infrared light would also be beneficial for hair follicles. The near-infrared is used in the brain helmet because that is what will get through the skull and be able to get to the brain; The red light won’t get there.

[01:21:00] Red vs. Amber Bedside Lights: Differences and Best Uses

Ryan Sternagel: “Please explain the difference between the red and amber bedside lights.” I guess you have an amber version of these too?

Scott Chaverri: This one—it might be hard to see on camera—but this is 633-nanometer red, so it’s very red. And this is 610-nanometer amber. To me, it looks orange. They’re slightly different parts of the spectrum. This one has no blue or green. This one has a tiny bit of green that comes out. If you want to be a purist, go with the red one, but there’s still no blue in the amber one.

The amber one is brighter, so if you need more light in the bedroom—like to read or whatever—it’s a good option.

[01:21:58] Eye Protection for Red Light Therapy: Recommended Glasses and Safety Tips

Ryan Sternagel: “Do you always need eye protection with red light therapy? What type of glasses are we talking about?” Are we talking about what type of protection glasses, I guess?

Scott Chaverri: They’re specific types. I spent a large part of a year trying to find good glasses. If you don’t want the light in your eyes—for certain power densities or durations—sunglasses aren’t going to cut it because near-infrared will go through bone, clothes, and sunglasses.

We sell glasses for $13, and we’ve tested them to ensure they attenuate the light properly. The way you can tell is if they’re green—they should be some shade of green if they’re properly designed to attenuate red and near-infrared light. That’s one way to tell, or you could use solid tanning goggles.

We offered those for a while, but I personally hated using them. I went out and found better glasses that are more comfortable.

[01:23:09] Using Red Light Therapy for a Sprained Ankle: Belt vs. Portable Device

Ryan Sternagel: “How would you treat a sprained ankle? I have the belt and the portable device.” Do you throw the belt on there or use the portable one?

Scott Chaverri: I would probably use the belt. I’d wrap the belt around it and do a good 20 to 30 minutes a couple of times a day.

For acute issues, I think you can get a little more aggressive with the dosing of the light. For regular repairs and maintenance-type things, 10 minutes a day is good. If you have an injury, I think you need a little more help. You can do it a couple of times a day and go a little bit longer.

[01:23:50] EMF Safety and Upcoming Mobile Device Updates

Ryan Sternagel: “Can you talk about the belts with regard to distance for EMF considerations, Scott?”

Scott Chaverri: The belt runs on a battery. It’s DC current, so there’s no EMF. I think the Brian Hoyer video is on our YouTube channel if you want to check it out. He tests the helmets, belts, and portable devices. No real concerns with direct current, which is the battery powering the belt.

Ryan Sternagel: FYI, on the website, the link for the Mito Mobile Flex is linking to the Mito Mobile Super.

Scott Chaverri: That’s because we sold out of the Flexes as of today. We’re coming out with a new one, tentatively called the Mito Pro Mobile. That’s a couple of months out, and it’s going to be our flagship mobile device. We’re discontinuing the Flex and the Super Mobile.

[01:24:49] Morning Light Routines and Sun-Gazing Practices

Ryan Sternagel: “Definitely want to try this. I get broken sleep.” The more light you can get during the day—do you do sun gazing, Scott? Do you look at the sunrise and the sunset?

Scott Chaverri: I try.

Ryan Sternagel: I go through phases of being good about it or not. Right now, I’m in a pretty good phase.

Scott Chaverri: It’s good to get in a good rhythm as a routine. Yes, I’m outside, grounded to the earth, drinking a glass of water, looking in the direction of the sun every morning. Do I stay out there for 15 minutes, like I try to? Or do I stay out there for five minutes and then run inside and start looking at my emails? That part I could do better at, but I am out there every morning.

Ryan Sternagel: I’ve got my alarms on my phone to remind me when the sunrise is coming up and when the sun’s going down. At the very least, I try to get out there right when it peaks above the horizon. I stand there and watch it until it’s a big round ball. That’s a few minutes—maybe five minutes. If I can, I’ll stay out there longer.

Scott Chaverri: I have to say, I’m not that good. Whenever I get up, the first thing I do is get a glass of water and go outside, but a lot of times, the sun’s already up. I’m usually typing and stuff, even with blue blockers on…

Ryan Sternagel: Even if it’s 5:30 in the morning.

Scott Chaverri: You’re up that early?

Ryan Sternagel: Yeah, I have blue blockers on until I go watch the sunrise. Then I’ll still wear special glasses when looking at the computer—not blue blockers, though.

[01:26:38] Comparing Red Light Therapy Devices and Usage Tips

Ryan Sternagel: Talked about hair growth: “I have a Platinum LED Biomax light and haven’t noticed anything after laying under it for 30 minutes. How is the Mito Red Light different?” Should have gotten Mito.

Scott Chaverri: Thirty minutes might be a lot. I would suggest dialing it back. I’m familiar with that company, and the product is pretty good. Although I don’t know which version you have because they came out with a new one that has blue and 1070 nanometers. Personally, we won’t use those in panels, but the older versions they have—I thought they were pretty well made.

Maybe try reducing the time. Thirty minutes might be too much because their lights are pretty bright. If that doesn’t work, you can try ours. We have a 60-day trial, and if you’re not happy, you can send it back.

[01:27:46] Understanding Wavelengths in Red Light Therapy and Choosing the Right Panel

Ryan Sternagel: “I didn’t understand the benefits of the four wavelengths versus the standard two. Could you elaborate on that a bit when choosing between the different options?”

Scott Chaverri: There are two elements to that. One is the origins of the red light therapy panel industry, where they use 660 nanometers of red and 850 nanometers of near-infrared. The only reason I can ascertain why those were being used is because those LEDs were readily available, as they were being mass-produced for other industries. It wasn’t driven by science.

If you look at the science, other wavelengths of light have been shown to be more active with cytochrome C oxidase, which is the chromophore at issue inside the mitochondria that we think is involved with the increased ATP production.

For example, 630 nanometers is the peak absorption spectrum of cytochrome C oxidase. If that’s what you’re trying to affect, why wouldn’t you use that wavelength instead of using a nearby wavelength?

That was my thought—why not add in 630 and 830 if those are peak action spectra for cytochrome C oxidase? That’s part A.

Part B is a more philosophical thing about how, when we’re out in the sun, we’re not getting a narrow band of 660 and a narrow band of 850; We get a full spectrum of light. If we know that there’s this optical window of light, 600 to 900 nanometers, where the light penetrates deep into the body, acts on the mitochondria, but doesn’t create heat, I was also trying to spread the light out a little more—more evenly distribute the light within that window—because that’s more congruent with what we get from nature. That was more of a philosophical thing. I’m not aware of studies showing that a combination of spread infrared wavelengths is better than two distinct ones. It was more of my own philosophical bent. Hopefully, that answers the question.

Ryan Sternagel: Get the largest panel that you can afford within the models.

Scott Chaverri: The Pro Plus uses the four wavelengths, and it’s still very reasonably priced. I personally like the Pro X the best for all the value it gives, the six wavelengths, and the usability. You can get a Pro Plus and save 10%.

[01:30:27] Optimal Distance and Intensity for Effective Red Light Therapy

Ryan Sternagel: “Can you put it on a desk and be two feet away?” Probably, but you’d need to do it for a longer time duration if you’re doing that.

Scott Chaverri: We say at six inches, our lights might put out three to three and a half joules. At 12 inches, it’s two and a half to three joules. At two feet, it’s probably going to be around one joule.

The intensity does drop off as you move away. I don’t think you’d want to be much further than two feet because you want to be within a certain range. You need the right temperature and duration before the light disperses completely and becomes too weak to move the needle.

This is red light—633 nanometers—but it’s not going to do anything if it’s not strong enough. If you’re several feet away, it gets to the point where it’s not doing much.

The analogy I use is that you can take a frozen turkey out and put it on the counter, but it’s not going to cook. It will defrost, but it’s not going to cook. You have to put that thing in the oven at probably 400 degrees for four hours to have a beautiful butterball.

Ryan Sternagel: “Satisfied customer—I’m using my Mito red light panel as you’re talking.” Awesome, Mary Lise.

[01:31:51] The Truth About “Medical Grade” Certifications and Marketing Gimmicks

Ryan Sternagel: “Are your panels officially medical grade?” Is that a thing?

Scott Chaverri: I’m not aware of a definition of that. There is an electrical safety certification—IEC 60601 for medical devices—but it’s an electrical safety certification.

I think there’s a company that claims their lights are medical grade, and they might have that certification. We’re working on it, but it’s not super important to me, to be honest. Some of the criteria, like using a waterproof drive, don’t really add to the value of the device itself. It’s more about checking a box for certification purposes.

We’re going down that path, and if some subsegment of our lights gets that certification, we could say we’re medical grade, but it’s not going to change the light, which is what matters.

That kind of stuff is a bit of a pain point for me because a lot of it is marketing. I hate BS.

Ryan Sternagel: There’s a lot of it, I’ve noticed. They’re a lot of certification companies.

Scott Chaverri: You can pay any amount of money for some sort of certification or award. Awards are another one of my favorites. You win an XYZ award, but then when you look into the fine print, you can buy those awards.

Ryan Sternagel: You can make your own. It’s like “National Whatever Day.” You pay this company five grand, and they’ll put out a press release and make it “Your Special Hydrogen Water Bottle Day.” It might be more than five grand, but it’s not much if you want to make a big marketing campaign around it. It’s ridiculous.

[01:33:46] Effectiveness of FDA-Cleared Hair Regrowth Helmets and Recommended Usage

Ryan Sternagel: “Did the helmets help with hair regrowth?” That might have been asked before we talked about it.

Scott Chaverri: Our devices are FDA-cleared, and our helmets are the only devices that are FDA-cleared. That means we’re allowed to say they are specifically for certain types of hair loss because the data is so overwhelming.

This is originally how it was discovered—in mice—and it showed regrowth of hair in the mice. It’s very effective. Hair loss, especially male pattern baldness, is multifactorial. You’ve got hormones, inflammation—there’s a lot going on. I do think you can face a lot of challenges in getting your hair to grow back, but for a large subset of people, it helps.

Ryan Sternagel: Here’s one question I have for you. When I got your helmet and looked at the instructions, it said to use it every other day, which drove me crazy because, you know, we’re in America, and more is better. Is that based on research, or is it a safety thing you put in the instructions?

Scott Chaverri: That’s driven by the research. Everything we can say is based on the studies that were done. The research and studies that got us to this point used that specific schedule.

In my opinion, if you used it a little more, I don’t think there would be much harm. Personally, I use the hair helmet one day and the brain helmet the next, alternating between the two. But again, I’ve got all the stuff. I’d say maybe go up to five times a week and see if you notice improvement.

Ryan Sternagel: I try to do it every other day, but then one of those days I’m here at the office then it’s the weekend, and I forget. I’m not even doing it every other day because it’s hard to get that into a routine.

Good—that’s been something I’ve been meaning to ask you about forever. Now I know.

[01:36:11] Optimal Distance for Red Light Therapy: Balancing Effectiveness and Safety

Ryan Sternagel: “I use my Mito Red Light panel primarily for face anti-aging (As I said, Scott, you look better every time I see you). I always get as close as possible to get the most advantage. Am I doing that incorrectly?”

Scott Chaverri: No, although there are a couple of things to consider; One is the EMF side of it. If you’re very close to the device, you’re going to be exposed to the magnetic field. Personally, I’m one of those people who shut off the power to the bedrooms at night and sleep in a canopy. I try to minimize my exposure to EMFs.

Ryan Sternagel: Acute exposure for 10 minutes, though, is much different than chronic exposure than sitting next to a cell phone tower all day.

Scott Chaverri: True. Bottom line: If you’re six to 12 inches away, you’re not in the field at all. Even the field at the device’s surface is small—a couple of milligauss, which is very low.

There’s the question of whether you want to be exposed to any magnetic field at all. The other side of it is that if you’re closer, you’ll get deeper penetration, but you should use it for less time.

We give general recommendations so the device can be used safely by the widest variety of people. If your eyes aren’t protected and you’re super close, that’s where I’d start to get concerned.

When I’ve had injuries—like a wrist or hand injury—I put my hand directly on the device. You’re going to get better penetration that way.

[01:37:55] Using Red Light Therapy and Microneedling for Acne Scar Healing

Ryan Sternagel: “What do you recommend for healing acne scars? Minutes per session, sessions per week, how close, and so on?”

Scott Chaverri: Unfortunately, I wish I had a definitive answer for this because I’ve had acne scars since I was 17. I would say use the light regularly and try to increase skin turnover. If they’re depressed, like mine, you might want to look into microneedling. That’s something I’ve used in the past, and it helped me a little. The idea is that, with depressed scars, the collagen and elastin form in a wonky way. You go in, break that up, and then try to get it to reform in a better fashion.

Microneedling or something similar to break up the scar tissue and allow it to reform over time, slowly filling in, seems like a logical way to approach it. I’ve had depressed acne scars on my face for decades. They do look better than they used to, but it’s been a slow change.

[01:39:03] Red Light Therapy for Thyroid Health and Emerging Internal Light Therapies

Ryan Sternagel: “Do any of the smaller panels penetrate the skin deeply enough to help the thyroid heal?” I would think it’s the same—you’re getting a smaller area, not the whole body.

Scott Chaverri: I’ll give an anecdote on this. I believe the thyroid is quite sensitive to red light, and yes, hitting this area will likely reach the thyroid and have some impact.

I have one anecdote about this, though it’s from someone who had a negative experience with our lights; That’s why I remember it. She was a 20-something-year-old who said, “I’ve been using your light for six to eight weeks, and I’m getting dizzy. I noticed it the past couple of weeks.”

I said, “Wow, that’s crazy—send it back for a full refund.” I didn’t want anyone to have negative side effects. I was curious, though, because I’d never heard of this before. I talked to her on the phone and asked if there was anything else she could share that might help me understand. She said, “I was thinking about it after I returned the light. I take thyroid medication, and I noticed that one of the side effects of taking too much is dizziness.”

The hypothesis was that she didn’t need as much medication because her thyroid was healing, and she hadn’t titrated back the dose. The medication was making her dizzy, but she associated it with the red light. It’s just an anecdote, but I do think the light can act on the thyroid, for sure.

As a matter of fact, if you have hyperthyroidism, you may want to be careful and even cover up the area to avoid overstimulating it. That’s the flip side.

Ryan Sternagel: I haven’t heard about this; Any comment about the new supplements you swallow that emit red light for internal therapy? Is that a thing?

Scott Chaverri: I don’t know. I’m very curious.

Ryan Sternagel: I wonder if we’re talking about photodynamic therapy, which we discussed before which is taking methylene blue or chlorophyll.

Scott Chaverri: Or maybe they’re talking about Neuro-liftin A, which I think is supposed to increase myogenesis or your body’s production of mitochondria. I’m familiar with that.

Ryan Sternagel: But how would a supplement emit red light, though? I’m sure both Scott and I will be looking that up.

[01:41:58] Hydrogen Bottle Material and Best Practices for Use

Ryan Sternagel: “Is the hydrogen bottle made of plastic or glass?”

Scott Chaverri: It’s plastic; It’s BPA-free plastic. The one thing I would say is you’re meant to run it and drink it right away; It’s not like it sits there.

Ryan Sternagel: That’s different, then. Don’t take it out in the sun for long. Use it and drink it.

[01:42:28] The Mito Pod: Convenience, Travel Use, and Red Light Benefits

Ryan Sternagel: “Can you tell me about the Mito Pod? There’s little information on the site.”

Scott Chaverri: It’s great. It’s for when you want to get red and near-infrared light to the body in a very convenient way; That’s why we brought that product to market. It’s also great for travel.

Once a year, I usually take the family down to Mexico, and I joke that it’s the most expensive vitamin D you can get; That’s the reason we go. I take my son down there to spend a week on the beach and keep his vitamin D levels up. Although, now I have an energy lamp, which I think I told you about. You should get one.

Quick aside—my vitamin D went from 37 to 78 in two and a half months using the energy lamp. From April to June, and I hadn’t been out in the sun at all because it’s 110 in Phoenix. It’s not because I was in the sun—it’s the opposite; I haven’t been in the sun at all.

Ryan Sternagel: I talked to that guy. He needs to get his price down.

Scott Chaverri: He did. They lowered it to 2,400. I agree, though—they had it way too high. They invested in manufacturing processes and got it way down. Energy lamp—that’s a whole other podcast, but I think everybody on planet Earth needs that thing.

Ryan Sternagel: I wasn’t going to do it with the higher prices, but cool.

Scott Chaverri: My N equals one—37 to 78, no supplements. I haven’t taken vitamin D supplements in 10 years, and I wasn’t in the sun; It was the lamp. Sorry, that was a tangent. The reason I told that story is because I take the pod with me when I go to Mexico. I use it to precondition my skin before going into the Mexican sun. There’s some data suggesting that red and near-infrared light can provide some UV protective effect. It’s great for travel and also a very convenient way—sometimes if I don’t get my red light in during the day, at the end of the day, I have a pod next to my bed, and I’ll lay in it.

We launched a new product called the MitoChiro, which is a cervical orthotic that goes under your neck. I lay back on that, so I also get to fix my neck a little while using the pod. It’s good, but I would say, if you could only get one, I would get a panel because it’ll last a lot longer and is much more powerful. The pod is convenient to use and great for travel. It depends on how you see yourself using it.

[01:45:00] LED Red Light Therapy vs. SaunaSpace Incandescent Bulbs: Key Differences

Ryan Sternagel: “What’s your opinion on the incandescent bulbs used by SaunaSpace? How would they compare to red light benefits in your LED bulbs?”

Scott Chaverri: That’s SaunaSpace. First of all, I know Brian. He’s a nice guy, and I admire the product he’s built.

Those are heat lamps, so they’re good for saunas and creating heat. You do get a little bit of red light, a little bit of near-infrared light in the optimal window, but you’re also getting a lot of the near- and mid-infrared for the heat, so they’re great for saunas.

I do think there’s something to be said for being more congruent with what we’d get from the sun for that, but for light therapy, you want the right tool for the right job. With LEDs, you can get a lot more light exactly where you want it.

I’m a fan of both, but personally, I use my LEDs every single day, and a sauna—well, I’m lucky if I get in there once a month. I also live in Phoenix. Right now, walking outside is basically a sauna.

Ryan Sternagel: I’ve never used a SaunaSpace sauna, but even for a sauna, I’ve heard you have to “turkey baste” yourself because the idea behind a sauna is raising core body temperature. Unless you have lights coming from all areas, I’ve heard it’s not even the best for raising your core body temperature. But we’re not here to talk about saunas.

[01:46:41] Eye Safety and Glasses Recommendations for Red Light Therapy

Ryan Sternagel: “You mentioned you wouldn’t want to be more than two feet away. Do you absolutely have to wear the glasses? Can’t you just close your eyes? Sorry if you already mentioned it.”

Scott Chaverri: Our company guidance is to wear the glasses. I think the overarching story here is that because we’re not outside all the time, the amount of pure lux or brightness of light we’re used to is very different. We’re literally like we live in caves. Then, when we go out in the sun, we can’t handle it. It’s true because we’re indoors all the time. It might seem bright in here, but it’s nothing compared to being outside. Inside might be around 1,000 lux, but outside, it’s closer to 100,000 lux; It’s that different.

One of the issues is that people will get a light like ours and be shocked by how bright it is. For comfort and usability, we recommend wearing goggles—it makes it easier. It depends on how bright the light is and how far away it is.

I don’t always personally wear goggles or close my eyes, but I’m also super acclimated to the light. I’ve been using these lights for years (eight years) and I use them regularly. That’s part of it.

Do I think there’s potential for long-term harm? In my opinion, no. But the way to make sure there’s zero chance, beyond my opinion, is to wear the goggles. As a company, we want to err on the side of caution, so we do recommend them.

I think acute amounts are probably good for the eyes, but the dose matters.

[01:48:33] Using Red Light Therapy for Injury Recovery and Ligament Healing

Ryan Sternagel: “We talked about a sprained ankle. Can red light therapy strengthen ligaments that have been strained?”

Scott Chaverri: I don’t know, but probably. I will say that we’re seeing red light used more and more in injury recovery. One of the most famous quarterbacks on the planet happened to hurt himself very early in the season, and I became aware that he was using our device as part of his recovery protocol.

At the end of the day, the wound-healing benefits of red light are well established. It’s becoming more widely adopted for that purpose. I would suggest trying it—I don’t see any downside.

Ryan Sternagel: It’s good. Quarterback—not that I follow sports—but it’s his political opinions; I like it.

[01:49:33] Comparing MitoMind and VioLite: Features and Brain State Benefits

Ryan Sternagel: “How does the MitoMind helmet compare to the VioLite? The MitoMind is frequency adjustable. Any other benefits?”

Scott Chaverri: We use the same wavelengths. Those VioLite guys are great; I’m a huge fan of them. They’re good scientists, and they’re doing a lot of great work to advance the field. I think one of their products got Health Canada approved recently; I’m not exactly sure which one. Kudos to those guys—thankful to them for helping raise awareness and doing science to show.

The MitoMind uses the same wavelengths as the VioLite. It’s 810 nanometers because that’s what the data showed when I looked at it—the wavelengths of light that penetrated the skull the best. The difference is that our helmet covers the entire head, whereas they have a few things, including an intranasal, which we also came out with.

Was there a second part of that question? How does it compare in frequency? The frequency is interesting because there is data on brain entrainment. We built the MitoMind to allow for different Hertz to correspond with different brain states. For example, sleep is zero to two Hertz, deep meditation is two to four Hertz, beta is around 10 Hertz, high beta is 20 Hertz, and gamma is 40 Hertz.

The idea is that you can pulse the light to the brain, and the brain will be trained to those frequencies; It’s pretty interesting. You can induce those brain states, similar to what the Vital Neuro is doing. But with the Vital Neuro, you’re training the brain to get into those states, whereas the MitoMind acts externally to induce the brain to get there.

It’s one of my little projects. I’m going to start using the MitoMind at a certain Hertz and then use my Vital Neuro after to see if the MitoMind is getting me into that brain state. Then I’ll spend more time because the Neuro can measure the brain state. That’s a little side project I’m going to do soon.

I can’t think of any reason why it wouldn’t work; That’s the thought process behind it. The MitoMind is very unique in that you have a lot of flexibility. I use it when I’m trying to concentrate, but I also use it before bed.

[01:52:09] Post-Surgery Use of Red Light Therapy: Safety and Wound Healing

Ryan Sternagel: I would say so: “Can the light be used to benefit, especially after surgery?”

Scott Chaverri: We try to be careful there—talk to your doctor and talk to your surgeon. I generally would let the natural healing process unfold for a little bit.

My anecdote with my stepfather—he was not healing. He had a hole in him, and it was not closing. That went on for a couple of weeks. Then he started to use it, and eventually, he healed. The wound healing is there, but we have to be cautious. I always say talk to the surgeon, and a lot of it’s going to depend on your specific situation. I would definitely talk to your surgeon, especially if it’s an open wound. But I think once it’s settled in and you’ve reached a good point, it’s going to help, or there’s a high probability it will help.

Ryan Sternagel: It’s good. Safe answers. Got it.

[01:53:19] Mido IR3 vs. IR5 Glasses: Near-Infrared Protection and Usability

Ryan Sternagel: “The Mido IR3 glasses, do they block 100% of the NIR?”

Scott Chaverri: No, they’re about 80%, and then the IR5s are about 95%.

Ryan Sternagel: But 80% does not harm your eyes?

Scott Chaverri: Exactly. If you look at the governing body for this—it’s like OSHA, but it’s an international governing body—I’m blanking on the name of it. They have guidelines for light exposure, including near-infrared light, for 24/7 exposure in work environments.

Our lights put out a lot higher than that, but you’re only using them for 10 minutes. When you put on the IR3s, we’re below that. I’ve done the math and all the measurements; We’re below the limit. It’s well beyond any safety limit, even the 24/7 work environment safety limit with the IR3s.

That’s why I include the IR3s and not the IR5s. First, we’re below that limit. Second, you can see through them. I’m hoping to encourage people to use them because the IR5s are so dark that I’m concerned if I included those, people would say, “It’s too dark,” and then take them off. I’m solving for attenuation but also usability; That’s why we include the IR3s.

[01:54:48] Comprehensive Support: Manuals, FAQs, and Customer Service

Ryan Sternagel: “Are instructions included with our purchase to explain all of this?”

Scott Chaverri: Yes. We do have a very detailed user manual. Then there are FAQs, and obviously, the “Learn” section of our site, which has a lot of articles. You can also email customer service. All of our customer service is done in Arizona, and I’m very proud of that. I personally train the associates. Hopefully, you get good service, and they can answer your questions. If not, you can escalate to me.

The user manual is, I think, one of the best. It’s a lot of work to write those user manuals and make them all-encompassing. I’m sure there’s room for improvement because we have so many products, but yes—between the user manual, the website, and customer service, I would think that we have it covered.

[01:55:46] Potential Benefits of Red Light Therapy and Methylene Blue for Lyme Disease

Ryan Sternagel: I don’t know what you can or can’t say. Any anecdotes—it’s a question about Lyme disease. I would think, in general, you’re helping the mitochondria, which is going to help everything, and so on.

Scott Chaverri: What I can say is I was aware of a Facebook group. There’s a Facebook group on Lyme disease where they were—it wasn’t necessarily our lights—but they were using red and near-infrared light and methylene blue. I would say, if you could find that Facebook group, maybe get feedback from the people who have done that. I’m not an expert in Lyme disease, other than knowing that it’s very difficult to deal with.

Ryan Sternagel: Methylene blue is antipathogenic, so it would make sense that it synergizes.

Scott Chaverri: Originally, it’s like the original malaria drug. But Lyme—I don’t know that much about it, other than what I’ve heard from that Facebook group.

[01:56:46] Using Red Light to Counteract Computer EMFs and Eye Strain

Ryan Sternagel: “I’ve heard that if you have a red light shining on you while working on the computer, it can counteract the negative effects of EMFs from the computer and give you more energy. Do you have a device that could be used for this?”

Scott Chaverri: I agree with that, but my explanation would be a little bit different. I do use one of these next to my computer. I’m also designing (like I think I mentioned before we jumped on) a task light that will go behind people’s computers and shine down.

The important thing is that it needs to be the right wavelengths of light, and it needs to be flicker-free. The problem with most LEDs is that they flicker, and that’s the issue with computers; It’s not just the blue light—it’s also that it’s flickering, which creates a low-level stress on the eyes. That’s why we get very tired from looking at screens, or even feel tension. If you’ve ever put on blue light-filtering glasses, you probably noticed the tension melt away.

I would recommend blue light-filtering glasses while working, and I’d recommend a non-flicker red light. The idea is that the non-flickering light washes out the flicker, which can help with the stress, along with the blue light-filtering glasses.

[01:58:10] Choosing Wavelengths for Thyroid Support with Red Light Therapy

Ryan Sternagel: Regarding the thyroid, I don’t know if you had the anecdote, but do you have a recommendation for a particular wavelength? I guess this would be in choosing between your different models.

Scott Chaverri: I don’t know. That person, that was a dynamic from five years ago, and she was using the original red and near-infrared 660 and 850 nanometer light that we had. I can’t imagine there would be much difference, but I don’t know specifically.

[01:58:45] Potential Role of Red and Blue Light Therapy for Toenail Fungus

Ryan Sternagel: Let me hit a couple more here: Toenail fungus?

Scott Chaverri: I don’t know offhand. I would think you’d want blue or ultraviolet light for that antimicrobial effect. The only thing I can think of is the red light and infrared light. Like I was saying with the intranasal device I’m envisioning taking to market, the combination of the two could be helpful because of the blue light’s antimicrobial action and the red light’s ability to boost the immune system locally. I think it could be a good one-two combo.

I had toenail fungus a long time ago when I was on a beer-and-pizza diet, and I could not get rid of it because I was on a beer-and-pizza diet. I know how hard it can be to get rid of. I think I wound up having to take my statin or Lamisil, or whatever it was, and it finally went away. Also, my diet was crap, and I know now that was a contributing factor to me not being able to get rid of it. I know how difficult it can be, and I don’t think red light alone would do much—maybe red and blue could.

Ryan Sternagel: I miss the beer-and-pizza diet.

[02:00:16] Exploring Red Light Therapy for Vision and Brain Health

Ryan Sternagel: “Can the helmet help with vision? I have epiretinal membrane retina puckers.” Could helping your brain help your vision? Any anecdotes there?

Scott Chaverri: Maybe. I don’t have any anecdotes. I will say that the eyes are essentially all brain, and the brain is essentially the eyes. I don’t have any anecdotes, but philosophically, they are directly connected. Also, philosophically, everything’s connected. To the extent that you can help one part of the body—if nothing else, from a sparing of resources effect—you can help another. I would say try using some red and infrared light. Try adding that into your life and see what happens.

Ryan Sternagel: We did already talk about Scott’s panels, Mito Red Light compared to other companies. Then we also talked about the difference between the helmets. The hair helmet is what’s been studied. Scott was also saying that it would make sense that the mind helmet would probably work for hair as well.

[02:01:41] Red Light Therapy for Neuropathy and Inflammatory Skin Conditions

Ryan Sternagel: And the one question I did want to get to, Scott, was: “Since you have a lot of neuropathy experience, does it work for neuropathy in my feet?” Where did the neuropathy come from, Gelada? Maybe while she answers that—any thoughts on neuropathy?

Scott Chaverri: There was a time when I was thinking about designing a boot to be used specifically for that. I would say the anecdotes have been mixed. I remember this conversation I had with a guy in his 80s. He bought one of our tabletop lights and was using it for his peripheral neuropathy in his feet. He was so disappointed that it wasn’t helping, and I had multiple conversations with him. I was disappointed it wasn’t helping him either.

It’s hard to know what else was going on with him. He was 86; He was pretty old. I have had other people say it has helped. I think it can—nerves can be tough. I know from my own experience with the nerve pain that I had, it didn’t do much for that either. I ended up having stem cells, and I used steroids; I did a lot of things. When I used the light, it took the edge off a little bit, but it wasn’t solving the problem. Neuropathy is tricky; Nerves are very tricky.

I do think there’s potential for it to help on the anti-inflammatory side of things. I would say it’s worth trying, but honestly, the anecdotes I’ve had have been very mixed. For some people, it doesn’t seem to help, and others claim it helps.

Ryan Sternagel: Psoriasis—we did talk about inflammatory skin; It’s a direct anti-inflammatory to your skin. Stands to reason it definitely helped with eczema. I would think it’s pretty similar for psoriasis, at least from that logic.

All right, everybody, we’ll see you on the next one. Take it easy.